Yeah, right

February 25th, 2008

Quote from Pallermo

I don’t consider myself as an evangelist of the ASP.NET MVC Framework. I’m an evangelism of good architecture, test coverage and maintainability.

Castle’s mission which is untouched since the project started back in 2004:

To provide a simple set of tools to speed up the development of common enterprise and web applications while promoting good architecture.

Funny enough, Pallermo never seem to care about Castle. Suddenly he – and others – became the world’s expert in MVC, testability, maintainability and good architecture. I wonder, what have been using to develop web apps before the ASP.Net MVC? WebForms? If so, I’m not that keen to believe that they are what they claim.

Categories: General, wtf? | Top Of Page | 18 Comments » |

18 Responses to “Yeah, right”

Jeffrey Palermo Says:

I do care about Castle, and I like it. I’ve promoted it in several interviews I’ve been in. Here is one of them: http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=375432

In fact, the current project I’m leading is using Monorail. Up until mid-2007 I spent most of my time with a very large smart-client application, so I wasn’t doing much web work at all. I’m here to tell you that MVC works awesome in a fat client as well!

“If so, I’m not that keen to believe that they are what they claim.” I don’t claim to be an expert on Castle, and I don’t claim to be an expert on ASP.NET MVC. I’m learning both products right now. I’m very impressed about the level of education you’ve provided the industry on how to use Castle the the principles involved. I’m, at this point, very concerned that the average Microsoft developer will use ASP.NET MVC not to improve their application design, but merely because it’s the new thing. I can see it now: before there was 1000 lines of code in Page_Load. Now there is 1000 lines of code in the controller action.

I’m hoping to represent myself with integrity, so I welcome challenges.

josh Says:

palermo seems to be a good guy, though I don’t know him personally. There is, however, a giant difference between MS the company and many of its dev/tech staff. Take Rob Conery, for instance. The devs are much more open and aware than the MS corporation.

personally, I’ll probably check out ms mvc eventually, but can’t fathom switching. I’m happy with castle, and think the people behind it (like hammett) are much more on the ball than MS. I just wish Rob Conery was working on supporting Castle in Subsonic.

Tuna Toksoz Says:

quote from Palermo
I’m, at this point, very concerned that the average Microsoft developer will use ASP.NET MVC not to improve their application design, but merely because it’s the new thing. I can see it now: before there was 1000 lines of code in Page_Load. Now there is 1000 lines of code in the controller action.

This is simply true. People will just use it because it is something new. They will still continue to write thousands of lines to controller, and they will think that this is seperation of concern.

I don’t want to see people shouting that “I know mvc ubersuper”, “i am testdriven horaaay”, “I know ORM, and use it all the times”. There was monorail looong before asp.net mvc framework and i was in love with it, nobody cared about it because it is not “microsoft”, but now I see people writing articles even about simple stuff on Microsoft MVC and saying that this is a milestone in web development.

Jeffrey Palermo Says:

@Tuna,
>but now I see people writing articles even about simple stuff on Microsoft MVC and saying that this is a milestone in web development.

You’re right. Some folks with their heads in the sand will think that Microsoft invented the MVC pattern itself. These people are unaware of the multitude of frameworks out there that support MVC (not just in .Net too).

Brian Says:

MonoRail vs MS-MVC… It’s like Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, Beta vs VHS. :)

Mogens Heller Grabe Says:

To be fair to Microsoft and the MVC team, ASP.NET MVC seems to be way more open and sensible and ALT.NET’ish even ;-) than any other MS framework I have seen. But _why didn’t MS just help promote and contribute to MonoRail?_

It’s really annoying that Microsoft often seems to refuse to acknowledge that there are so many great open source projects out there.

Tuna Toksoz Says:

@Mogens Heller Grabe
This isn’t the way Microsoft likes. Instead of supporting one project, microsoft does its own way, spend more money and time and generally ignores what the community has done so far. And this results in closed box and usually less extensible project.

MVC seems to be an exception since I really find asp.net MVC framework similar to monorail.Even though i am not highly skilled developer, i can say that asp.net mvc is just a simpler version of monorail. I am sure there are some significant differences but from naming convention to features, microsoft follows monorail, and learn lots of bits this time.

I really appreciate what the castle project has achieved, and I really thank to community for putting me one step closer to excellence. It is not just the framework, but i gained so much techniques from it.

Steve Gentile Says:

Keep up the good work guys – all that is being done is benefiting and helping to educate the .Net community.

“others – became the world’s expert in MVC, testability, maintainability and good architecture. I wonder, what have been using to develop web apps before the ASP.Net MVC? WebForms? If so, I’m not that keen to believe that they are what they claim.”

On the flip side, it sure is good to have developers around me talking about testibility, maintainability, and good architecture. If that is all that is accomplished, it’s a good thing :) I don’t care if they are Monorail experts or MS MVC experts – as long as those principles are there.

Jafin Says:

Does ASP.NET MVC have a working story on mono?

AgileJedi Says:

Wow…MVC was first described in the book “Applications Programming in Smalltalk-80(TM):How to use Model-View-Controller” in 1979!

hammett…you’re doing a great job! As long as Castle is Open Source I’ll be sticking with it! I prefer to see what I am getting AND I like the direction you are taking Castle.

BTW: I’ve got some ActiveRecord mods I’ll be submitting patches for (UpdateSchema stuff)

Dan

Yok Says:

asp.net mvc doesn’t support array type data binding, it’s troublesome :(

Alessandro Riolo Says:

Hamilton, being Sicilian, and having lived in the city 9 years myself, Palermo is the correct Italian spelling (Palermu is the Sicilian one).
That said, I enjoyed your Pallermo spelling a lot, given that people from Palermo would usually call their own city, in their own variant of Sicilian, as Paliemmu, which in English I would therefore spell as pal-lee-r-moo.
Did you learnt the sound from some Sicilian Palermitanu speaker?

Rhywun Says:

> now I see people writing articles even about
> simple stuff on Microsoft MVC and saying that
> this is a milestone in web development

So what? Spreading MVC to the masses is an unqualified good. And in the Microsoft world, the only way that’s going to happen is if Microsoft does it itself. And then managers will actually let their developers use it now. Sure there will be some “LOLZ I know MVC!” but that’s to be expected.

Tuna Toksoz Says:

@Rhywun
No this is not an offend to Microsoft or article writers. What I don’t like is they wait to use something and more frequently ignore some methodologies/projects/practices until they come from Microsoft. This is the thing that I don’t like.

Jeffrey Palermo Says:

@Tuna,
I completely agree with you, and this occurs not just on the Castle front. This happened with NUnit (MSTest), NAnt (MSBuild), NHibernate (Linq2Sql/EF).

Funny. ORM will become industry standard now that Microsoft has some ORMs coming out.

Rhywun Says:

> What I don’t like is they wait to use something and more frequently
> ignore some methodologies/projects/practices until they come from
> Microsoft

Of course. They’re businessmen :)

> Funny. ORM will become industry standard now that
> Microsoft has some ORMs coming out.

Man, I hope so. I’m tired of the DBA’s demanding control over my business logic.

Shaneo Says:

“before there was 1000 lines of code in Page_Load. Now there is 1000 lines of code in the controller action”

I can hear Oren now… “Make it easy to do the right thing…”

I think in this instance the only way to ensure people do the right thing (ie: not putting 1000 lines of code in the controller action) is to educate them on the reasoning of why this is a bad idea.

My hat goes off to you guys who are out there making a difference.

AgileJedi Says:

@Rhywun
You’re still using DBAs? “DBAs will be the first geeks against the wall when the revolution begins!”

Tuna said – “What I don’t like is they wait to use something and more frequently ignore some methodologies/projects/practices until they come from Microsoft.”

Let them keep waiting…it’s kept me well paid and happy ;-)

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